Bodolaeth Duw

[Mwddrwg]

mae poen a dioddefaint yn bodoli ddim oherwydd absenoldeb Duw neu unrhyw fod perffaith, ond oherwydd nad ydym ni yn berffaith. cytunaf a GDG ond i mi mae'r ffaith bod genym ni ymwybyddiaeth o berffeithrwydd, amherffeithrwydd, cariad, poen, euogrwydd... etc yn dod gan Dduw yn y lle cynta.

[Rhys Llwyd]

mae poen a dioddefaint yn bodoli ddim oherwydd absenoldeb Duw neu unrhyw fod perffaith, ond oherwydd nad ydym ni yn berffaith. cytunaf a GDG ond i mi mae'r ffaith bod genym ni ymwybyddiaeth o berffeithrwydd, amherffeithrwydd, cariad, poen, euogrwydd... etc yn dod gan Dduw yn y lle cynta.

canlyniad pechod, cwymp dyn ydy dioddefaint yn hytrach na chanlyniad an-allu neu diogrwydd Duw.

[Gwahanglwyf Dros Grist]

Shwt yn gwmws y'n ni'n pechu? Beth yw ein cwymp?

[Rhys Llwyd]

Shwt yn gwmws y'n ni'n pechu? Beth yw ein cwymp?

Gweler Genesis 3, sori bo fe'n Saesneg dim ond y Testament Newydd sydd ar beibl.net hyd yn hyn.

Genesis 3

The Fall of Man

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,

"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [1] and hers;
he will crush [2] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [3] named his wife Eve, [4] because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [5] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

[Gethin Ev]

Mae Duw yn berffaith achos dyn sydd wedi’i greu.
God did not make man, man made god.

[Gwahanglwyf Dros Grist]

Rhys, rwy'n gwybod dy fod ti'n eithaf triw i'r Beibl, ac yn ei ddilyn yn eithaf llym, ond alla' i ddim gweld y cysylltiad honedig rhwng pechod Adda ac Efa, a'r syniad ein bod ni yn bechaduriaid. Pam ddylai fy ffawd i gael ei bennu gan rywbeth a wnaed filoedd o flynyddoedd yn ôl? Pam fod hynny'n fy ngwneud i yn bechadur?

[Rhys Llwyd]

Rhys, rwy'n gwybod dy fod ti'n eithaf triw i'r Beibl, ac yn ei ddilyn yn eithaf llym, ond alla' i ddim gweld y cysylltiad honedig rhwng pechod Adda ac Efa, a'r syniad ein bod ni yn bechaduriaid. Pam ddylai fy ffawd i gael ei bennu gan rywbeth a wnaed filoedd o flynyddoedd yn ôl? Pam fod hynny'n fy ngwneud i yn bechadur?

Oherwydd fod Adda ac Efa yn ddynion fel ti a fi, dy ni gyd run peth, sef pechaduriaid. Does dim un dyn yn fwy pechadus na'r llall, dy ni gyd yn gyfartal gerbron Duw.

Sy'n golygu fod na iachawdwriaeth i bawb hefyd...

Ond archollwyd ef am ein troseddau ni, a'i ddrylio am ein camweddau ni; roedd pris ein heddwch ni arno ef, a thrwy ei gleisiau ef y cawsom ni iachad. Rydym ni i gyd wedi crwydro fel defaid, pob un yn troi i'w ffordd ei hun; a rhoes yr Arglwydd arno ef ein beiau ni i gyd.

[gwern]

mae poen a dioddefaint yn bodoli ddim oherwydd absenoldeb Duw neu unrhyw fod perffaith, ond oherwydd nad ydym ni yn berffaith. cytunaf a GDG ond i mi mae'r ffaith bod genym ni ymwybyddiaeth o berffeithrwydd, amherffeithrwydd, cariad, poen, euogrwydd... etc yn dod gan Dduw yn y lle cynta.

Canlyniad pechod, cwymp dyn ydy dioddefaint yn hytrach na chanlyniad an-allu neu diogrwydd Duw.

Pam ddylia ni ddioddef achos be naeth Afa a Efa yn ardd Eden? Ddyio ddim yn amser i dduw forgvio ni?

[gwern]

Mae tad sydd yn caru ei blant yn gadael ei blentyn fynd allan i y byd a gadael o neud dipin o fistakes. Ond os mae tad yn gallu stopio plentyn gael ei ladd mi neith. Os mae duw yn gallu neud bob dim pam nad ydio yn stopio plant gael ei lladd fatha bysa tad efo ei blentyn. Fatha os bysa plentyn yn gofyn iw dad " gai drio dipin o alcahol". Bysa tad yn gadael iw blentyn i ddangos bod mae yn afiach ond bysa tad ddim yn gadael iw blentyn neidio oddiwrth top adeilad i ddangos i y plentyn mae'n beryg.

[Rhys Llwyd]

Mae tad sydd yn caru ei blant yn gadael ei blentyn fynd allan i y byd a gadael o neud dipin o fistakes. Ond os mae tad yn gallu stopio plentyn gael ei ladd mi neith. Os mae duw yn gallu neud bob dim pam nad ydio yn stopio plant gael ei lladd fatha bysa tad efo ei blentyn. Fatha os bysa plentyn yn gofyn iw dad " gai drio dipin o alcahol". Bysa tad yn gadael iw blentyn i ddangos bod mae yn afiach ond bysa tad ddim yn gadael iw blentyn neidio oddiwrth top adeilad i ddangos i y plentyn mae'n beryg.

Dwi ddim cweit yn gwbod pam y gwnaeth y Duw holl-alluog adael i ni bechu yn y lle cyntaf, ond dyma rai geiriau yn trafod y cwestiwn:

Why did God allow sin?

Answers

There are questions like, “Why did God allow sin?” and the why questions are very difficult when they get into the nature of God! He did allow it and that suffices the issue because we just don’t know why. We can speculate why He allowed it--theologians have done that for years--that’s called the problem of theodicy or why God permitted evil.

And maybe the best solution to that question is to simply say He allowed it in order that He might destroy it. By that I mean this: if there is a right, there is a left; if there is an up, there is a down; if there’s an in, there’s an out; if there’s a good, there’s a bad. And so, if there was goodness, there was always potential evil and maybe God allowed evil to exist in order to ultimately destroy it so that it could no longer again exist. And that’s what heaven is all about.

But that’s a stab at it--that’s the way I kind of look at it--but there are some questions that are very difficult to answer because we just don’t know the mind of God and there is no specific revelation in the Scripture regarding such questions. Why did sin enter the world? And again we have the difficulty of that same question, and I mentioned it to you earlier: there is no answer to that question. We don’t know why; we just know that it did.

But the question that followed that is important: why did Adam sin? You ask most people, “Why did Adam sin?” and they say, “He was tempted by Satan and he sinned.” That isn’t true. Was Adam deceived? No. Paul said to Timothy, “Adam was not deceived; the woman was deceived.” Eve was deceived. That’s why women have (for one reason) taken the subservient role in God’s order: because they sinned, they were deceived.

Why did Adam sin? The best answer to that is that Adam sinned because he loved Eve and once she was what she was, he wanted to be what she was. In addition to that, there is no answer. But apparently--and most scholars say--to be what Eve was. I mean, at that point he didn’t have a lot of choice; she was the only woman around! If you wanted any kind of compatibility, that was how it was. It shows you the foolishness of man’s first decision.

Now don’t ask me what would have happened if he hadn’t done it. “What if” questions are tough too.

Why did God create us with sin in the world?

This is a perpetual question for theologians and laity alike. When we look at the world and recognize that a holy and infinitely perfect God has created us, we can appreciate His majesty and wonder. But, it is impossible for us to ignore the fact that this world is far from perfect. There is sin in it. Why, then, if God is infinitely perfect and powerful, did He create a world and allow the fall to occur to contaminate it?

The Bible doesn't give us specific answer to this question, but I would like to offer this possible answer as food for thought.

God did not lack anything in Himself that prompted His creative act. He wasn't lonely or bored. To say such a thing about Him would be to imply He is not eternally self-sufficient and perfect. But, if God is perfect and doesn't need anything, why would He then create us -- and the universe for us to live in -- that has fallen into sin? What purpose would it serve?

I suspect the answer lies within God's nature and a few clues spread throughout God's word. To begin with, God is love (1 John 4:16) and the nature of love is to give. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son..." I cannot help but believe that the most natural quality of love is to give, to be other centered, and, according to Jesus' own words, to give of one's self to the point of death. John 15:13 is where Jesus said, "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

According to Jesus, there is no greater demonstration of love than self sacrifice to the point of death. Since God is love (1 John 4:16) and there is none greater than He, I conclude that God can and will be the one who demonstrates the greatest act of love. I cannot see God allowing a mere creation to demonstrate this in a better way than He. It would be a necessary outcome of His own nature and a necessary manifestation in any universe He created that the two greatest commandments spoken of by Jesus to love God and love your neighbor (xxx) would be supremely demonstrated by none other than God Himself. Jesus was God in flesh who loved the Father perfectly and He loved us completely by laying down His life for us. This is the greatest and most perfect act of love according to Jesus.

If this is true, then it might just be that God had to create the universe so that the fall would be included in His plan for the very purpose of demonstrating and manifesting His perfect character: Love! To demonstrate the very greatest part of His nature of love, He would have to die for someone else. This could not be done if there was no one to die for and no reason to die for them. There could be no reason to die if there were no need for an atonement. There would be no need for an atonement if there were no sin. If there was no fall, there would be no sin.

Therefore, perhaps it is possible that God created the universe with "free will" creatures in it who would fall into sin. Without this fall, ultimately no death would be necessary to atone for them and without that death, the greatest act of love could not be demonstrated. Also, this would mean that the truest and most perfect quality of love would not be fulfilled. Would this then mean that God would not be perfectly fulfilled without having given of Himself? I don't know. But I can't help wondering that for God to truly express His perfectly loving nature, He Himself had to be one who laid His life down for others. For this to happen, He allowed sin to exist in this world.

Furthermore, I suspect that it was Jesus Himself in the garden who walked with Adam and Eve. I base this upon Jesus' own words in John 6:46 where He states that no one has ever seen the Father. Yet, we know that God appeared in the Old Testament (Gen. 17:1; 18:1; Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-8; Acts 7:2; etc.). If it was God who was seen and it wasn't the Father, then it must have been Jesus. Why do I bring this up? Because after Adam and Eve sinned, God Himself (Jesus?) shed the blood of an animal in order to cover them with animal skins. This shedding of blood was instituted by God as a prophetic typology of the true and final sacrifice that God (Jesus) would carry out so many thousands of years later when He laid His life down as the perfect demonstration of His loving character. The redemption of mankind was always in the mind of God and was planned and carried out by God as a manifestation of the eternal love He has for His people. This love was made complete in the death of Christ. Also, I suspect that this is what is hinted at in Heb. 13:20 with the reference to the "blood of the eternal covenant" that some theologians think is reference to God's eternal plan of salvation made within the Trinity before the universe was made. This covenant was the inter-Trinitarian arrangement to redeem mankind through the sacrifice of Christ.

Therefore, I conclude that God may very well have made a universe in which sin existed so that He Himself could show the greatest and most perfect act of love by laying down His life for His friends.